Alexis: 0:00

Are you struggling with how to move up in your career? Stick around and I'll share with you what I've told thousands of people at Google about navigating the performance review process, or, as Google employees used to call it, Perf. Plus, you'll hear what my good friend, Sara Shookus, a Director at Google, has to say about growing your career.

Alexis: 0:20

Hey, I'm Alexis Booth and welcome to the Breakout Booth. I was a senior manager at Google. I'm a wife and a mother and I learned the hard way If you're not fired up, you're on hold. I believe success is closer than you think. There's a set of skills and habits you can grow to unlock unbelievable outcomes. In this podcast, we'll explore them through real talk and bold conversation, because I want to help you break out. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the Breakout Booth. I'm Alexis Booth and today we are going to talk about the ins, the outs and the roundabouts of climbing the career ladder.

Alexis: 1:11

This is a topic I have discussed at length over the years on stages, in roundtable discussions and in one-on-ones, coaching reports and mentees, and in fact, the talk I developed on the topic years ago was really the spark that led me to create my podcast altogether, my talk on the subject had two names" how to Prevail at Perf and how to Catapult your Career. It's probably worth calling out up front. It specifically discusses career progression, not only in just the corporate sphere, but specifically at Google. Now, I do believe that elements of the mindset and the approach could be applied to plenty of other settings, even if the specifics don't quite match up.

Alexis: 1:54

By the end of my time at Google, I'd shared the talk to well over 5,000 employees, as it took on a bit of a life of its own. In the talk, I dialed in to what it really takes to get good performance ratings and to get promoted as a Googler, boiling it down to three main things Number one do amazing work. Number two elevate everyone. And number three, make others notice On face value. These may seem like obvious things to you, and I wouldn't be surprised if your first reaction is one of irritation or indignation. It's why I didn't start with those words. I framed up the talk from the get-go with some funny memes that reminded everyone that we all get incredibly anxious when it's performance review season.

Alexis: 2:47

I literally don't know anyone who doesn't get at least a little bit nervous at the prospect of receiving not only official judgment from your boss, but judgment that affects how much you'll get paid, whether you're going to get promoted or, in a worst case scenario, if you're at risk of getting . I also included one of my favorite quotes from Brene Brown, " fired review process as an opportunity to grow and get better. You have to let down your guard and be willing to hear and work through feedback that can be really difficult to take in. So, to get us started on today's discussion about climbing the career ladder, I'm going to walk you through the three stages from my talk and then we'll bring in my incredible guest for today, Sara Shookus, for a broader discussion on the topic.

Alexis: 3:51

The first of my level-up stages, stage number one, is do amazing work. If I were to imagine a person who does this, it's someone who repeatedly identifies new and untapped opportunities to make a real difference. Catchphrases that would describe them are things like someone who is a game changer. They're innovating or doing things that disrupt the status quo in a positive way, and if the person is in a senior role, they're doing this with less and less prompting from their manager or leadership and, by the point you are at the executive level, this is really something you are expected to do on your own, almost instinctively. Generally, the work this person is actually doing falls into two categories. They are either unlocking brand new opportunities for growth and impact, or they're reducing pain in some way, whether it's with customers or within the company. In a best-case scenario, they are helping to make more money faster, save money or people's time, or make drastic improvements in customer experiences. Oh, and figuring out a way to measure any of these things in a place where it couldn't be done before, that would also qualify.

Alexis: 5:11

Now, a trap that I've seen plenty of people run into when it comes to this stage of leveling up is they think their job is to satisfy the list of responsibilities in their job description, and if they can describe how they've met each one of those goals in every single bullet, it means they are rocking it and they're going to see the big bucks soon. And while, yes, you do need to make sure you cover all the basics in your job, the problem with this kind of thinking is that if your actual goal is a high rating and, even more so, a promotion, managing yourself to those expectations will never get you those outcomes. You're focusing on the floor of what is expected in your job rather than the ceiling, where you're pushing the boundaries of what's possible.

Alexis: 6:02

Doing amazing work is all about you finding spaces that are untapped, taking bold steps no one had even thought to take before, and solving problems in a way that makes a big difference for other people. By its very nature, this is often work that no one could have even assigned to you in the first place. Part of what makes it amazing is that you're the first to take any real action on the opportunity, or you're the first one to come up with a workable solution. Many times, you're the first person who even realizes that there is a problem that needs to be solved and, whether you like it or not, ratings are almost always done on some kind of a bell curve, and you have to be exceptional, making a bigger impact than your peers, to make it to the top. Now, it doesn't mean you're in direct competition with your peers. Everyone has different strengths and abilities, but the highest ratings are awarded to people who are moving the needle in some way and maximizing their strengths in the context of their job. If you're doing amazing work, it means, by its very nature, you are changing the idea of what it is possible to achieve in your job, what it is possible to achieve in your job.

Alexis: 7:29

The second of my level up stages, stage number two, is Elevate Everyone. This is something you can only truly do if you've gotten really good at number one, meaning you're already in that place where you're jumping in to solve complex and hairy problems with novel solutions. In this stage, you make your solutions reusable or repeatable and you lean in to help your co-workers and sister teams, maybe even your customers or partner companies that you work with, to use them. What you're doing in this stage is you're scaling solution's impact through other people to touch a broader range of customers and teams, and in doing so, you are ultimately responsible for leading a sweeping wave of improvement and driving even more value, cost savings or customer satisfaction, or customer satisfaction.

Alexis: 8:28

Now, nailing this stage is not just about going to your next team meeting and telling your co-workers about a cool thing you did. It's much bigger than that. It's proactively reaching out to a teammate, offering up a specific way you think you can help them and then scheduling time with them to see if they could apply your solution to their particular situation. You might even tag along with them to help put it in motion with a customer or a sister team and when that goes well, it's going and helping more co-workers to do the same. And once you get enough traction, you start joining team meetings across the region that you work in and eventually you're joining global team calls. As you get feedback on limitations of your solution, you continue to improve and iterate on it. You might even build in some automation or create some different flavors that apply to some different situations. You're effectively treating your solution like it's a product and your goal is to get more people using what you created, not because you're annoying and you're nagging them, but because it is a genuinely great idea and it makes everyone's lives better. The ultimate outcome for this stage is that your solution gets enough traction that it becomes known as a sort of new standard. You're effectively defining the best practice for doing something important, because it's a truly awesome idea and you've made it easy to use and follow.

Alexis: 9:57

If I were to call out a trap for Elevate Everyone, it's that this is a type of work that does not occur to many people to do in the first place. Most of the people I managed, including some of the highest performers, needed prompting to think about taking this step with their work and encouragement to take it further than they were comfortable with. Naturally, I think there's a few reasons for it. First off, asserting you have a solution in the first place can feel a bit braggy. Plenty of people shy away from making bold claims like that. Secondly, it opens you up to challenge and criticism. You might hear a lot of no's or reasons why people feel they can't use it. You might also hear that people have a better solution they're already using, which, by the way, is a great opportunity for you to look on collaboration and trying to come up with an even better solution that integrates both of your ideas.

Alexis: 10:54

And third, bringing this back to the performance review and the promo space, the way most of us were trained to learn and work is that you do things all by yourself or, you know, maybe you collaborate on things and co-develop them. In fact, one of the most important aspects of the performance process is that you're truthful about the things you yourself did and you're not claiming other people's work. But what I'm describing in this step is not that. What I've described here is a situation where not only did you define a solution, you're inspiring other people to make use of it and you're giving them tools, materials and support so that they can do it really easily. You've done the heavy lifting for them, and what this is is you are taking on a truly meaningful leadership role. It's not collaboration, it's not delegation. This is building scale through followership and adoption of your solution. Now, to be clear, this can feel like an incredibly brave and courageous act, especially the first time you're doing it, but this is most definitely something that you can learn to do. I have seen plenty of people step up to the challenge.

Alexis: 12:17

The last of the level-up stages, stage number three, is Make Others Notice. For most people, this is the hardest step of all and, just as I talked about in stage number two, you can only make headway on this one once you've achieved the prior stages, meaning you're already doing awesome things and you're already sharing the love and making everyone else's lives better. This stage is where you turn up the dial even more and make sure that everyone knows about it, not only because it reflects very well on you personally I mean, we're talking about performance reviews and promotions but beyond that, this is the step where you are unlocking the full potential of your solution for the business as a whole. Practically speaking, some things you can do to make it happen would be schedule time with your skip-level boss, schedule time with their boss and their boss. I mean, go as high as you can trying to connect with people who would actually care about the thing that you have developed. Also, connect with senior leaders in the sister organizations that you work with, as well as connect with internal forums and communities at your company. See if you can get a 10-minute slot at one of those next global meetings.

Alexis: 13:39

But don't just talk inside your company. Think outside of your company. Offer to write a blog post or hop on a podcast so you can share your idea with customers and prospects with an even broader reach. Put your name in the hat to speak at one of your company's big deal events, like a global developer summit, or think about a third-party public conference or forum that brings a lot of people together. This last stage is really the icing on the cake of you taking your work to the next level. It's where you actually use the calling card that you've already created in the prior two stages and you are grabbing the attention of the senior leaders in your org. It's for awareness as well as to unlock even more opportunity for impact If you do it well. This is how you can get yourself advocates and sponsors that speak on your behalf. If these are people who are outside of your org, they're people you can ask for a letter of support if you're going up for promotion. Those are things that can work wonders for you. It's also possible they might casually bring up your name with your manager or your skip manager, highlighting you in extraordinarily powerful ways. If these are people who are in your org, they are the ones who are in those promotion and performance calibration meetings. They're the ones who are going to speak up and say, oh yeah, they are doing that work, they're so great All because they know of the work that you're doing.

Alexis: 15:17

Now, in case this last stage is making you break out into hives. Now, in case this last stage is making you break out into hives, I do want to assure you pretty much everyone I have ever managed and the peers that I've worked alongside for years all needed help in this space. Most of them naturally never thought about doing this kind of work, and even the ones who did, they needed coaching and encouragement and to get suggestions or introductions to leaders they'd never met so that they could start to make headway. And in case it's not clear from what I've described here. The skills that you need for stage three are entirely different than what you needed in both stages one and stage two, but what I would call out as the biggest trap of this stage make others notice it is the same as stage two. This is probably not something that would even occur to you unless and until you get prompted to work on this kind of thing. Even though the work may be different from what you've done up until this point, it is totally learnable and doable if you set your mind to it.

Alexis: 16:26

And that is my podcast version of the three stages of leveling up, which is adapted from my old Prevail at Perf talk. I've still never heard anyone else outside of this talk describe this particular path to higher ratings and promotion, and I wanted to share it with you because I got so much positive feedback from other people who felt that I had really demystified what it really took to climb the ladder, at least within the walls of Google. But even if you don't work in tech, I would argue that much of what is in here could help you make an even bigger impact. In whatever kind of job or work you do, I believe you have way more agency than you think you do to take your career into your own hands and fast-track a high rating or a promotion. If that's what you want to do, and if you do decide that climbing the ladder is your goal, then hopefully this talk has given you a boost of confidence that, yes, you can put on your big curl pants or whatever article of clothing you want to go with and you can make moves toward that goal.

Alexis: 17:40

Not only that hopefully I've given you some insight into different types of moves that you could think about making that will actually help you level up. And with that and with that, I would love to welcome to the mic someone who I have known for a very long time, Sara Shookus. She is a director at Google, and not only has she helped other people move up in their career as a coach and as a manager, but she has been tremendously successful in climbing the ladder herself. Welcome, Sara Shookus.

Sara: 18:15

Yay, thank you for having me, Alexis. I'm so happy to be here.

Alexis: 18:20

I am so happy that you are here, yay.

Sara: 18:23

I mean, I've always known this about you, but you have like the perfect podcast voice.

Alexis: 18:27

Ooh, thank you. You do you really do? I appreciate that. It's very funny because I remember this was one of my jobs when I was still living in New York, and it's funny this actually came from a fellow Midwesterner, I think it was even someone from Wisconsin, and she made fun of my accent. I mean, I have a little bit of a Midwest accent, I'm from Chicago, right, but anyway, I just never thought of myself as someone who could actually really be a public speaker after I heard that. It was just something that stuck really in a weird way.

Sara: 19:02

No, your voice is very smooth. It's great.

Alexis: 19:05

Well, thank you so much, and thank you so much for joining me on this episode. It's awesome to have you here today For our listeners. I would love to give a little bit of a background on Sara so you know more about her. Generally speaking, Sara is a no-nonsense badass. She's super, super smart and really sharp as well. I just remember from working with you for a long time you were always the person who's getting pulled in to do like the big, big, crazy projects and stuff, and I know so many people who look up to you, myself included.

Alexis: 19:43

Sara is a director at Google, where she has worked for over 11 years now. You've been in Google Cloud for the last eight and a half. That's where we met. You'd also been in the ad side of the business before that and done some other work previously, but I feel like we've been kindred spirits in a lot of ways. The first time we really started working together was when we were assigned to own the DEI projects in our org obviously, you know, with Divya, so the three women who are actually in the org got to do it and, by the way, this is also, of course, a hot topic these days but we actually wound up co-founding a little mini ERG for our org. We've watched each other climb the ladder and we've gotten to see each other become moms several times over, which is cool. Anyway, it's always such a pleasure whenever I get to connect with you. Is there anything else that you would like to share with listeners about you? Work, personal, otherwise.

Sara: 20:43

Well, yeah, I mean, I feel like a majority of my career has been at Google, so I think you've hit on that well. Outside of work, I am spending a lot of time with two little ones, a four-year-old and an 18-month-old. That take up all the remaining time I have, but I also am a big runner and I paint a lot. That's my fun fact that I realized nobody really knows this about me. I'm I'm a painter and I like to paint all the surfaces in my house as much as I can.

Sara: 21:15

I haven't yeah, I haven't tackled this room yet, but maybe someday.

Alexis: 21:19

So so like like you paint the walls, do you paint like paintings?

Sara: 21:23

I've done like pseudo murals but also just kind of like abstract designs, so like I come up with a design and it's almost like wallpaper, but it's, it's, it's painted.

Sara: 21:35

So super cool, like stamps and stuff, or like I don't actually use stamps, I do it all freehand, but that's what it tends to end up looking like. Yeah, that's so cool, I know it's. It's like I realize people don't realize we all have these bizarre little things we do outside of work and you just tend to not end up sharing them. So yeah, I was mentioning it to people recently and they were like what?

Alexis: 21:58

yeah, a kind of funny thing about me that no one really knows is I. I guess I haven't done this in a long time, but I'm a quilter. My mom got me into quilting. I actually made my first quilt. Uh, it would have been I think it was like the the summer before my my freshman year of college and I actually made a bedspread for for my college bed. That was kind of fun amazing.

Sara: 22:20

I love that.

Alexis: 22:22

I haven't. It takes too much time, though, and, like the whole setup is a lot, I haven't done it in a while, but anyway, thank you for sharing that. That's beautiful. I opened up with a version of my Prevail at Perth talk that I'd created several years ago. Any reflections, either on the talk or, just as you're coming into this episode, what's top of mind for you?

Sara: 22:58

Yes, first can I just say your talk was amazing. I remember when you first did it at Google and you know there's so much we used to call it perf, we now call it grad at Google, but there's so much collateral around the process and the timelines and you know the specific step-by-step ways to do things and I think what made Preval at Perf so amazing was that it just kind of cut through it all and it was really, you know, real talk about the topic, which is frankly what people really need. I mean, yes, you can follow this step by step and that's great too, but you kind of want to know the nitty gritty of it and what's really going to matter. So I've always loved it. I'm glad to see it resurrected and to chat about it more today.

Sara: 23:41

Truthfully, it all aligns with my experience. A lot of things I was thinking about, just you completely nailed it and, if anything, you know, as you were saying this, all I was reflecting a bit on, just you know, working at Google. I honestly feel fortunate that some of the things you're outlining are accepted and, frankly, encouraged at Google. You know, like going above and beyond your role and seeking out areas that, as you said, are untapped or have yet to kind of be conquered. It's really part of the DNA of Google, and so I, like I've worked elsewhere where that's just not really the case. You know you kind of need to stick to what you're expected to do, you need to do a really good job, but no one's really looking for you to go above and beyond and create Gmail like people did back in the day. So I think that's just amazing that we've had that experience to even approach this topic that way. But it all certainly resonates with me, and I think there's a lot of little tidbits there that I'm sure we'll talk about more.

Alexis: 24:40

Yeah, actually, just to share with listeners, in case you didn't know, gmail was not an assignmentmail. Happened because there were a bunch of people who were hanging out in the micro kitchens and the google offices. This is like part of why google really has always wanted to sponsor and encourage and pay for people's food and meals is because all of this spontaneous kind of conversation and different ideas come together. There's a lot of other things that I think in the DNA that all come together, but you know, literally no one told anyone to do it. It was someone saying like hey, let's try this thing, like we don't, we don't like Yahoo Mail enough, like we can do it better, which I think, which is kind of what I was trying to get at in the in the talk. But, thank you, I appreciate that Well. So, Sara, since you're actually still at Google I'm not Could you do us the honors of sharing with our listeners what PERF is and what GRAD is? I think I actually outlined both of them up front in my lead-in.

Sara: 25:42

Yeah, sure, I'm sure GRAD is an acronym for something that I should know, and I don't know it off the top of my head. But you know, at a very high level, it's the formal performance management process that Google leverages. So it's the process by which we regularly have check-ins between managers and their direct reports to look at various different expectations that are aligned to both their role as well as their level within the company. And you know talk about how are we tracking? Are you meeting those expectations? Is there more you could be doing? Is there tweaks on the behaviors that you're exhibiting? We do that throughout the year and then ultimately culminates in a final performance rating, which is then directly correlated to your compensation. So you may or may not be getting a raise, some additional equity or a bonus, and so all those things are kind of tied together, I guess if I were to describe PERF and GRAD in the smallest terms possible.

Alexis: 26:47

Perf is literally short for the performance review process, and there was a link go slash perf that you went into. It was actually a tool. It was colloquially known like the process and the tool actually kind of buried it was. It was replaced in 2022, I think, by GRAD, which stands for Googler Reviews and Development. That is what Google told me.

Sara: 27:14

There you go.

Alexis: 27:14

Even as an outsider no longer at the company I can find these things out. It's amazing. I think the biggest things were really. Perf was twice a year. Grad is now once a year, although there are quarterly check-ins that you have with your manager. So the big formal process is only happening once a year. Grad is now once a year, although there are quarterly check-ins that you have with your manager. So it's the big formal process is only happening once a year, and it's all about. It's the performance review process. It's a formal process that goes through leadership and everything to get blessed, which also is interesting, because in many different corporations and companies, they've actually even done away with performance reviews entirely, where they only have real-time promotions, which is a whole topic of its own as to is that good, Is that not good? I was not the decision maker on any of these things.

Sara: 28:02

It's timely as we are rounding out the grad process now in the next few weeks. And you know it's a very it takes a lot of time, it's a time consuming process for everybody but, I think, ultimately a valuable one.

Alexis: 28:18

It sounds like your experience at Google did align with. You know, generally, the things that I was talking about. How about as a manager or where you have been acting as a coach or a mentor to other folks? Have you found this to also be useful or aligned with those types of conversations?

Sara: 28:38

Totally. I think you know a few of the things that you mentioned the stages, particularly around being proactive and identifying untapped areas. I mean that's like a regular theme that I feel like I'm discussing with people. I think when it comes to coaching and mentoring folks, there also tends to be a lot more. Frankly, there's just even a lot of like pep talk. There's a lot of pep talks, you know, just getting people to see themselves in a different light. People tend to be their own worst enemy or their own worst critics, so there's a fair amount of that as well. But I think really helping people identify what those opportunities are, even just, you know, bringing the idea to the forefront but then ultimately helping them to figure out what those opportunities can be is something that I spend a lot of time on with folks. So, and it brings me a lot of joy. To be honest, it's awesome when you get to kind of line someone up with something that's like new and exciting and shiny and hopefully aligned to what they're good at as well. I love when that happens.

Alexis: 29:46

So yeah, that was definitely one of the best parts of being a manager. It was surprising to me how much this talk also not only that more people wanted to hear it and it seemed to ring true with them, but also how much joy I got out of it. Literally, I said up front this is one of the reasons I actually started the podcast. This was like one of those moments where I really dug in, instead of talking about what everyone else has already said. It was well, what do I actually think? And it was a fun process to dig into that, actually decide what I thought and then put it together and see what people reacted with so.

Sara: 30:30

Well, you know, the other thing is you forget. I mean I forget what that process was like as an IC, to be honest, because once you're on the other side, you very quickly, like I said, you just you start to forget what it was like and how frankly hidden a lot of the elements of that process are and unknown. And so that's why, when I said your talk, what I loved about your talk was how real talk it was, because I think it just helps people kind of peek behind the curtain ever so slightly and feel like they're getting just a little bit more behind the scenes, and I think that's super helpful. Makes it a little less scary too, you know.

Alexis: 31:08

Yeah Well, thank you. It's definitely funny coming back to it now. I figured out. I think it was five years ago I actually first gave it and I kind of put it on the back burner because grad came along and replaced perf. The other thing about perf was you actually wrote your own review. You articulated what your accomplishments are in grad. You're doing that throughout the course of the year, but at the end of the year your manager actually pulls it together on your behalf and is speaking for you. And those quarterly check-ins they're not happening specifically on a date. They can be much more flexible. There wasn't the same kind of compelling event, I guess, to bring it together. But do you think that there is anything that you've experienced or that you've coached other people on that you think it's missing? I mean, obviously it's only talking about three things. It's not covering everything. What are some of the most valuable things that you've come across?

Sara: 32:07

It's not covering everything. What are some of the most valuable things that you've come across? Yeah, I think the biggest one that I tend to see is conflating career progression and promotion. I mean, those two things can be one and the same, but a lot of times they are not necessarily. And specifically at Google and I know we're focusing more on Google for this you know, at Google those are usually two different things. So the promotion is kind of on one track where you are up leveled to a new HR level, if you will, that comes with, you know, likely additional pay and other compensation benefits.

Sara: 32:43

There are other ways to pursue career progression that do not necessarily directly tie to a promotion, and so I think one thing I get I hear a lot is there's no opportunity for career development, especially in this current climate. Right, like there's not a lot of net new headcount, there's not a lot of more senior roles, and so you get a lot of you know there's not, there's no career development opportunities. Like I feel like I'm kind of stagnant and what people are really saying is I'm not getting promoted. The truth is there are always these career progression and career development opportunities. You just have to, first of all, you have to expand your aperture a little bit and like what? What do you consider to be a career progression opportunity, which for me would be developing a new skill or working with a new team or starting up a new big hairy project or whatever, any of those sorts of things. And you have to be willing to go and look at those as opportunities as well, even when these opportunities for direct increase to your salary are not as readily available. So I think and I get it, I listen, it's hard. I mean people don't want to hear it right, like they'd just rather be promoted and get the new opportunity. But I think you have to look for, you have to look for the silver lining and what you can make happen given the many other constraints and the climate and all the other things at play. So that's one that I try to find the right way to get people to see that. And again, it doesn't land for everybody. I think sometimes folks get in a very like tunnel vision mindset when it comes to promotion. But that's certainly something I hear a lot and talk about a lot, you know.

Sara: 34:25

The other thing just generally about career progression is it's not always like a straight line up, and I think you mentioned this a little bit, but it's in Google especially and having been at Google for a long time, I say this all the time to folks is Google's about.

Sara: 34:42

I don't even know at this point, 15 companies inside of Alphabet, probably more, I don't know, I can't keep track of them. But there are a lot of different business areas that you can potentially be a part of. I'm not saying it's easy right to go jump to a different part, but there are a lot of different areas within the business that you can pursue completely different domains, completely new skills, completely new networks, and so I really think horizontal, if you will, moves into different teams, different departments, are certainly another way of advancing your career, and I also feel like there are just moments where you're not going to necessarily. You know where things might just be, kind of you know, steady state and that's okay too, like not everything needs to be full steam ahead straight up the mountain. I think there are moments where you know your personal life certainly plays a factor and you have to balance it all. So I think those are, you know, a couple of the things that I'd mention.

Alexis: 35:43

I love what you're talking about there, Sara, because even as we're talking about the name of this episode of climbing the career ladder, that does imply upward motion, and I know both of us have taken steps at some point in our careers where it's either a lateral move or it's a move into an entirely different domain. Can you talk a little bit about how you came to the decision? I know of several obvious ones, but there's probably some smaller ones. How did you decide to make those different moves? Did they come to you? Did you chase them?

Sara: 36:20

Yeah, I think probably depends on the time in life and the particular move.

Sara: 36:25

But I will say, when I've looked at my career, I've never been someone that knew exactly what I wanted to do, and so instead I've approached it more, as you know, kind of like checking boxes of different experiences, and I say that of course, now I've been in cloud for eight years, though I will say I've had many different experiences since being here.

Sara: 36:50

But so that's kind of how I approach things, and it was really more about finding, you know, certainly finding things that I didn't enjoy in each experience, but then always finding, like, at least one or two things that I really did and wanting to carry those forward as much as possible, and knowing that there would be you know two things that I really did and wanting to carry those forward as much as possible and knowing that there would be, you know, other things that would come that I may or may not like as well. So for me, you know, I think totally in the spirit of this podcast is it's it's very exploratory. I've always wished, I've always prayed and wished that I was someone that knew exactly what I wanted to do my whole life. I envy those people so much, but that, unfortunately, is just not me. I'm a little bit more. Fly by the seat of your pants, take opportunities that come to you.

Alexis: 37:35

That's interesting to even hear, because I actually don't wish I was someone who knew my every step, and while it's painful or irritating or I mean there's all sorts of messy emotions that can come with the exploration but ultimately I get bored when I'm doing the same thing all the time and I feel like if I had a plan that was in front of me that I knew what my life was supposed to look like, I would come to hate it. In fact, I remember people talking about like hey, what's your five-year plan? Have you thought about your 10, 15-year plan? No, and sure I mean you can argue that there is certainly missed opportunity in this too.

Alexis: 38:19

People who are actually going after very big things and signing up for many years of schooling or whatever it takes to get there. They are doing these amazing things and, yes, it will take many, many years to get there, but I would rather be on the journey. I actually love spontaneity and I don't love discomfort, but I do love the ability to reflect on the ebbs and flows and the unexpecteds. But I feel like that's a lot of what I've been trying to get more comfortable with in myself is being flexible, being open to different things that would never have occurred to me. Coming back to really thinking about, I guess, the performance review process or career progression and growth in general, are there any skills that you have seen people over index on, or that you can think of there being too much of a good thing that you see in other people?

Sara: 39:19

Yes, the number one for me is focusing on the what without understanding the why. And at a place like Google, where everybody I mean I won't generalize, but let's be real everybody is like overachievers and type A and, just like you know, get their to-do list done every single day, I think people just churn work out you know, and it's amazing.

Sara: 39:48

It's amazing to see what people can get done. But you realize, you know you're talking to someone about what they're working on and you're like what's it like? What are we trying to accomplish here? What's the goal? Or how does this tie back to our organization's broader strategy and priorities? This tie back to our organization's broader strategy and priorities? And then you kind of you get a blank stare because you know so much of the focus just ends up being on like I did this work right and it was great, and so I think that's a really big thing.

Sara: 40:21

You know, when you're starting a new project or working with a new team or a new manager, I think starting with you know the goals, the why you're there, the why you're focused on whatever it is you're focused on is really important. And if you don't get it, like keep asking questions until you get it. That's the other thing is, you know people are like, oh sure, that makes sense. And then it's like wait, I really I'm, you'm. You know, now two months into working on this project and I realized I don't actually understand why we started it. So I definitely think that's a big one, that's certainly a big, you know, um, when it comes to grad, when it comes to perf it's all that you've heard per fodder, right, all the things you get to write in your assessment because you did all of these activities but really, really focusing on why you're doing them and then what is the outcomes that you're actually driving from doing them is what ultimately matters.

Alexis: 41:16

Yeah, I'm hearing that as a lack of critical thinking skills. Ultimately and in fact this is even one of the things that Google hires for in the hiring process it's GCA general cognitive ability where the first thing that you actually measure is what is the problem that we are trying to solve? There's actually even a secondary one in it, too, which is should we be solving this problem at all? That I actually found a lot of people who were always constantly busy because they had I'm going to use a lot of irritating phrases for people, but I can't help but do it. They'd have all this bias to action, so they'd jump in oh there's a problem I need to solve, but it's like a thousand dollar problem instead of a million dollar problem, and they just kept on going after these small bits and, at the end of the day, no one cares what you're doing. And I love that you have all this creativity and you want to do things, but there was this missing link there that I definitely hear what you're talking about with that.

Sara: 42:17

Yeah, and people see it. You know it's pretty, it's pretty easy to spot, to be honest. So, yeah, and I think the other one I would say is this is also one of your stages, but I think you have to be careful with it is over advertising the great work you're doing yeah, which, if you're doing great work and driving great results, shouldn't be very hard, to be honest. But I've certainly seen folks tooting their own horn nonstop and it starts to rub people the wrong way.

Alexis: 42:55

Oh, totally.

Sara: 42:56

So there's a balance there.

Alexis: 42:58

There are people you don't even want to work with.

Sara: 43:00

They're like ugh Right right, you know when that email comes out. That launch email comes out from the same.

Alexis: 43:08

You're like, oh my God, not again. Yeah, one of the things that I have come across from there's actually two people who have been talking about this. It's not quite the same, but it's kind of the same is glue work, which if you haven't heard it, I will walk you through it. Or nap work work, which, if you haven't heard it, I will walk you through it. Or NAP work. Nap is actually the easier one to talk about. It's not actually promotable work. Jenny Wood, who recently left Google she actually has a book coming out, I think it's called like Wild Courage, but she was talking about this and Tanya Riley she's a principal engineer, so she's very technical. She has a blog article about it. I'll add it to the show notes, but she talks about this thing of being glue and ultimately, I think what both of them are talking about is really the same kind of thing.

Alexis: 43:57

Women in particular, I think, have a higher propensity to do this kind of stuff, but it's not just women. We are generally, I think, socialized to do this kind of stuff from a young age, but it's basically we bring people together, we help all the people align. We're like the ones making all these shared solutions. We're the ones who are cultivating collaboration. Solutions were the ones who are cultivating collaboration, and we even help make these big disagreements. No, no, let's all get on the same page. Okay, cool, we make it happen, and then someone else is writing the code or writing the templates and the scripts and all the stuff.

Alexis: 44:37

That's the actual promotable work. No one officially cares that you, especially as an IC, went and did all of that really hard work to actually make people work better together. That's actually manager work. It's also even not work that managers are really even truly, truly measured by in many regards, because the actual thing that you would be talking about it is work, productivity. So, yes, those are metrics, but ultimately it would be tenure on your team. Do you foster a great environment where people want to work? And especially with turnover and all of the org changes and stuff, you can't even measure it. I'd also say, in the climate we're in right now, I don't know that tenure or preventing attrition I don't think is actually a thing that is a top line HR goal. Right now, there is still regrettable attrition, but at the end of the day, when there's tough business climate, it's also less regrettable than it would have been a couple years ago.

Sara: 45:42

I would challenge that a little bit because I feel, like now at Google, the climate that we're in, everything requires about no less than 20 people to get it done, and so the role that you're talking about, the person, that kind of pieces together everybody is the glue. You know ultimately what that is and how you articulate that is, they're leading the project. Yeah, more or less. I mean, of course it's context specific, but to your point where it ends up being a woman. Often we have to find the right way to articulate that so it gets the credit that it deserves, because it is incredibly important.

Alexis: 46:21

So valuable point. I would actually say Tanya Riley, coming from an engineering background, the story she's talking about, that is a reality. Engineers get promoted based on lines of code and launches and all of those types of things. So if you're spending your time doing that, you're making less time to do the other stuff. I would agree that actually, a program manager would have responsibility for that, or there may be other roles where that kind of stuff does matter, but I also do think that there are a lot of people who are in those positions who then delegate the act of writing the stuff and they're effectively acting as a director, especially there.

Alexis: 47:02

It would always irritate me when ICs would be doing this directing and it was like what are you actually adding to this? So I do think that there, somewhere in there is you need to be actively contributing to the work products. Yes, making the things come together, but what are the deliverables that you have in it? Again, this is very, very Google-centric, but at the end of the day, I do think that being able to point to the things that you created, in addition to making the outcomes happen, both of those are very important things, I would agree. So one of the things that I know has led to a lot of changes in my life and the things that I want to do with my time is becoming a mom. How have you balanced motherhood with your career aspirations, and is balance even the right word to be using here?

Sara: 47:58

It's such a good question. Well, I think the first thing I would say is and you and I have actually we've also shared a lot with each other about infertility and the process to even get to this point. So, you know, I think every day I first am like I just feel lucky to be having to strike this balance. I feel lucky to have kids, you know. So it's really changed my perspective at work. I'm not sure it changed my perspective as much after the first one, I think I still.

Sara: 48:31

I still was not ready yet, but with the second one I came back feeling really differently and I kind of kept telling myself over and over and over again, and this may not even sound good, but I kept telling myself to just not take myself so seriously, for me, anyway, I'd get in meetings or I'd produce something. And then you turn around and you're like, oh, I shouldn't have said that one word, I should have, you know, reframed that one sentence on the slide and whatever. And you kind of pick apart things and I, I really would take moments to step outside of myself and be like no one else on this call is thinking that I is even thinking about me. Frankly, you know, like, first of all, start with the fact that everybody's pretty darn selfish and self-centered and they're mostly only thinking about themselves. Then, when you put that aside in the you know 5% of their brain space that they give to you, they're really not thinking about all the mistakes you made. And so I think you know, like I said, I think becoming a mother has really given me a different perspective. That's helped me approach work in a much healthier way.

Sara: 49:39

There's definitely ups and downs. I do feel like balance is the right word. I don't know, I know people probably argue about that, but I think it is the right word. I've certainly had ups and downs and you know moments where it's the work is overwhelming or the personal life is overwhelming and you can't really find how to get the two to marry out. So I think I've really focused on my partnership with my husband. I mean, that's that's super important. Again, I'm, I'm lucky to have that partnership and I hear my friends a group of friends we talk all the time. They work, many of them work at Google and you know, I hear them complaining a lot about how we have to do it all and I'm and I'm like I don't. I don't actually agree, and I've kind of given up on that because I'm just like, first of all, my husband needs to do a lot of it and then, second of all, no one's going to do all of it, just period, like we're not going to have the children in perfect outfits every day, for that's not me anyway. But you know, we're just, we're not going to hit certain, certain expectations and I don't really care. Yeah, so I think the partnership with my husband's been super important.

Sara: 50:47

I also think, you know, making time for myself.

Sara: 50:51

I also feel like I've talked to a lot of moms that have a hard time working, moms that have a hard time getting babysitters or going away, and I, and first of all, there's there are hormonal things there, there's a lot of things at play and I certainly don't mean to overlook that.

Sara: 51:07

But I think really giving yourself space to have a career, have a family, but also do some other things, you know, once in a while, that give you your peace of mind, you know, give you a moment to kind of like be a human that doesn't have all these other responsibilities, so so that's been a big thing for me and I don't feel bad about it either.

Sara: 51:31

I certainly feel bad about certain things sometimes, but but you know, like giving myself time to go play tennis or have dinner with my friends is very important to me, you know. And then of course, there's just like setting boundaries, and I think you know, again, we're fortunate or you were fortunate I still am to be at Google, where setting boundaries is again encouraged. It's, it is part of the culture and the norms and so people are like you know, you know, at 530, that's roughly when I'm not really going to take more meetings and do more work, and I try to be thoughtful about that, also thoughtful about the way I interact with my team, so that I'm not setting examples that I don't want them to go then feel like are the norm. So there's a lot of different things here. It's certainly not straightforward and it also, again, the balance changes every day.

Alexis: 52:29

Yeah, I know, for me, when I came back after having my first kid, it was really hard and I really struggled with that transition. When I went out to have my second, I actually thought I might stop, like I might pause, or I might really step back. When I came back, but I remember actually I was working for Patrick at this point he was like no, no, no, no, no, just do the time, like see what happens, see how you're feeling. And when I came back, I actually was so excited to jump back in. Actually, the talk was something that I did. I wrote it in my first month being back from my second maternity leave because I actually had the space to do it and I was super excited. After that, that was when I jumped in and took over financial services for PSO. After that, that was when I jumped in and took over financial services for PSO and, of course, covid hit.

Alexis: 53:24

You know there's all these other things that start coming into play with all of that, but I would also say that I had not expected that at all. I was surprised by myself and what it was that I wanted to do next, which was really interesting.

Sara: 53:39

I also. This may be strange, but I also feel and I've talked about this in therapy and some I don't know, maybe it's something I need to work through, but it's like I kind of feel like I have two identities, a little bit right Too. Like I have, I have this working identity and people ask questions about my kids or they're like, oh, you're really in it, and I'm like, well, yeah, I'm in it, but like right now I'm at work. So that's, that's different, that's separate you know Right.

Sara: 54:04

Yeah, and then I have like the, the personal life identity and it's so funny because I have so many. Frankly, half the time I think I have more stressors in the personal life side and not even because of the kids.

Sara: 54:16

There's social stuff and I don't know whatever. Like, my house is a mess and I've got to paint another room because I just love painting so much. But anyway, I feel like I've gotten very good at compartmentalizing. Where it's really, like you know, I can focus on the work. And again there's days where that's not the case and someone's sick and blah, blah, blah, but really trying to keep the two separate to some extent. Again, maybe that's not healthy, but I feel like it's worked well for me.

Alexis: 54:46

There's a lot of people who've talked about that separation, even actually having multiple identities, even beyond that of when you're with certain groups of people, you're one way, when you're with other groups, and I can definitely relate to that very much when I was in work mode. I was in work mode and in fact I remember my husband would come to ask me a question or I'd get like I never checked my phone during working hours because that was just like not it, and he'd get so mad that he's like I sent you this text and I'm like, yeah, I haven't looked at my phone, like no. Or he'd like jump in the room to ask me some question and I just was not in the state of mind to be able to answer and talk with him.

Sara: 55:29

Yeah, it's Google Chat nine to five. I mean, that's really you need to ping me or you're not really getting a response.

Alexis: 55:35

So intense. Yeah, on a bit of a different tack here, one of the things that I've been playing around with in this podcast that I don't know. I think it's a cool idea. We'll see if it really goes anywhere but is this concept of power moves? So it's a thing that you did in your past that ultimately changed the trajectory that you're on. A key part of it is it actually has to be in the past, because, even though you're doing things all the time and making moves in different ways, you never know which ones are actually going to produce those like big change outcomes. Coming back to thinking about sort of your career, can you think of a power move that you have made that was really important in bringing you to the place where you are today?

Sara: 56:21

I actually have a question for you first. Sure, when you think about power moves, are they always intentional? I'll tell you one.

Alexis: 56:29

Well, I guess this is not necessarily a direct one. One of mine that I think about in the career space was I actually applied to become a manager. So I guess there. But the reason that I applied wasn't actually because that I was really really ready to be a manager. But the reason that I applied wasn't actually because that I was really really ready to be a manager. It was that we were living in California and I wanted to go back to Chicago and it was going to pay for that.

Alexis: 56:49

So the primary thing that I actually wanted out of it wasn't even the promotion. I was actually kind of scared, swearless, that what I was going to need to do as a manager, because I knew I had all these gaps. But actually the thing that like pushed me over the line wasn't about being a manager. It was like I want to go home, got it. I'd also say that, yeah, conditions changing around you certainly could. There's probably plenty of things that like, because of covid, because a parent, something happens to a parent or a kid, actually I I would say that I there's things that I wound up changing because of family situations for sure. So, yes, it doesn't necessarily have to be because you actively chose it.

Sara: 57:31

Okay, a power move that I've made, so I think a very clear one for me was that I knew. So, again, I talked about earlier that I've kind of approached my career as seeking out new experiences, almost like a checklist of like okay, I've done that, let's move on to, you know, some different skill. The one skill I had been very curious about and thinking I really wanted to pursue was people management. And when I left Accenture I was about to be a manager. But I made the decision to come to Google anyway, knowing that I wouldn't have that immediate opportunity to manage any team. But from the beginning, when I joined Google, I did intentionally vocalize my goal to be a people manager. So you know, it wasn't something that was part of every single one-on-one and every you know weekly conversation I had, but it was something that I was very intentional about making sure my managers understood it was a career goal for me and ultimately when I joined, cloud still hadn't happened. You know I was still trying to make it happen.

Sara: 58:41

But when I joined cloud I similarly vocalized that as a goal and it got to the point where I at that point I wanted it so bad that I started looking at other manager roles as well. I actually was a, was a finalist for a this is so funny to say out loud now to me but I was a finalist for a sales manager role, which I'm like I could never imagine myself. I never knew this about you, Sara. Yeah yeah, it was back when we had ISRs, I don't know, inside sales, yeah Right, and the role was in Austin, so we were going to move. I ultimately didn't get it, but the thing was, I think and my manager knew I was applying to that other role- was this when you were working with Dennis yes, yeah, and he knew I was applying to that role and he probably got a little scared.

Sara: 59:34

So ultimately the timing ended up working out. I didn't get that role but within a week or two I was starting to interview for a manager role on his team and I ultimately got that one. So I don't know that I, you know, brought that opportunity to fruition totally, but I definitely was very intentional about that being a goal and I think I would consider that a power move, you know.

Alexis: 59:59

Totally. I would also knowing what I know now about how all of those things happened. I imagine that Dennis probably wound up having conversations with Patrick and other leadership to actually say whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, we are at risk of losing this amazing person. What can we do? Because the creation of a role like that does not come out of nowhere. So I actually imagine that the fact that you were getting so far in that you, I mean, I don't know, I was not in the middle of any of the situation in particular, but it certainly couldn't have hurt your chances to actually wind up with a manager role there. I think this is one of those things where I think, especially when we're trying so hard or we want things so hard, we don't always push and almost press for negotiation or like really clear cut stuff that we want, and sometimes the risk of walking away can actually open up new opportunities. For sure. I would call that a power move, and I totally had no idea that you did that.

Sara: 1:01:07

Yeah, oh yeah, I did. I have another good one. Can I share another one, ooh. I want it. Yes, this one's like juicier, so it's not that juicy I shouldn't have promised. So my other one is when I was at Accenture I was paying New York rent but then traveling every week to not live in my ridiculous apartment. We've all been there traveling consultants. I made the super smart decision to instead give up my New York City apartment and relocate to my Marriott Executive Stay apartment in Gaithersburg, Maryland.

Alexis: 1:01:49

Oh, my God.

Sara: 1:01:50

No, yes, I lived like next to a strip mall and I worked at Marriott headquarters there and I was like I'm so smart, I'm saving rent money and just sacrificing my joy in life. But I did that for five months and then I was, as you would expect, miserable, and so I literally remember the moment at Accenture you don't really have a direct boss sort of I don't even really remember you had a career counselor and I remember getting on the phone with my career counselor and I said I'm quitting, I'm done, I can't do the travel anymore.

Sara: 1:02:28

Um, I'm leaving Accenture, thank you so much. It's, you know, been great, and, as they do at Accenture, they don't want to lose anyone that they've, you know, trained and up leveled. And so she was like well, what if we can, what if you can move back to New York and we'll make sure we get you New York-based projects. And that's ultimately what happened. I moved back to New York, got a new apartment, got on some New York-based projects and within weeks is when I started interviewing at Google in the New York office. And so it was just, you know, maybe a little bit more serendipitous than necessarily a power move. It's definitely a more unintentional one, but I think just recognizing what wasn't working and being okay with making a really scary change ultimately precipitated a very awesome change.

Alexis: 1:03:17

Yeah, I love it. Well, you got back to New York. It was kind of like the Google part of it was just like the icing on top. That's such a great story.

Alexis: 1:03:25

I'll tell you a quick one. That was a unintended negotiation that wound up being a totally unplanned power move my very, very first job out of college. There are so many stories that I could go into, but one of them was that I was not happy there in this, maybe three months into my job there, or whatever. Anyway, I was making my resume and printing it out and dumbass leaves the resume on the printer and I come in the next day in the morning and my boss is like, hey, alexis, what's this? And I was like, uh, you're not making enough money. Okay, I'll give you a thousand bucks more. Every month I got a $12,000 raise because I left my fricking resume on the printer. That's amazing.

Alexis: 1:04:17

I love that also totally unplanned. I would actually say my best negotiations have been total mishaps. That wound up going my way and I was like, oh wow, that's really cool, go me that's just when you say you did that on purpose.

Sara: 1:04:34

You know it was all planned, it was part of your strategy, totally totally anyway, yeah, um well.

Alexis: 1:04:41

so I think we're probably coming up on time. But before we wind up having to close out, I would love to ask one last question for you. Let's say someone comes up to you and says Sara, you know everything, you're the smartest person in the world. I want to move up in the career ladder. What do I need to do to get promoted?

Sara: 1:05:05

Oh, great question, Definitely one I've been asked a time or two. First and foremost is your manager cannot read your mind If you think you're doing the most amazing work in the world and that someone is going to magically know that a career goal of yours is to be promoted. It's not necessarily that clear, so you really need to make sure your manager knows that this is a goal of yours. It's super important for you and your manager to be on the same page and have roughly the same expectations. Otherwise you're going to be upset, you're going to get disappointed at some point. So that is super important. And, by the way, I have to add this that does not mean that you badger your manager about it weekly. That is bad, do not do that I've also had that happen.

Sara: 1:05:58

That is the quickest way to not get promoted. Okay, so you have to understand how to be tactful.

Alexis: 1:06:04

Probably you're at risk of starting to go down a couple pegs in terms of any like great ratings either. To be honest, Right.

Sara: 1:06:11

Where is this person's self-awareness? You know so, vocalize the goal and have regular, but not too frequent, conversations about how you're tracking towards that goal. So I think, in terms of promotion, that's a huge one for me because, again, especially in this climate, we're not slinging promotions. There's not one for everybody, and so if I think someone's chilling, doing good work and happy as is, that may be sufficient, you know. So I think that's a really important piece. If you talk more about potentially promotion, but also just potentially moving up the career ladder, having career progression, having new career experiences, the biggest one for me and this is actually so well aligned to your talk but it's really around that entrepreneurial spirit, that ability to proactively identify an emerging issue, a recurring problem, something that has not been tackled yet, and figuring out a way to try and tackle it. It's like the whole if you see something, say something.

Sara: 1:07:22

I'm in New York where the subways we are, but that's huge for me and I don't want to. I don't mean to oversimplify that, because it's not easy. There's a lot that goes into that type of mentality and the work that is then required to produce something that is promotion worthy. But you know, you at least identifying those opportunities, having conversations around where those untapped opportunities may lie. I think my point is like trying to be the first to a problem is a very good place to be when you want to move up the career ladder, when you want to get a new experience or, frankly, when you want to get promoted and it doesn't, you know. The final thing I'll say is it doesn't need to be some massive project, it doesn't need to be Gmail, alexis, it could be something like really small, it could be, you know.

Alexis: 1:08:13

Good, because I can't write Gmail.

Sara: 1:08:17

Yes, certainly that is not why I've ever been promoted, but it doesn't need to be, like you know, solving world hunger. It can certainly be something small and you start to build this reputation reputation in a good way, by the way for being someone that is proactive and sees a problem before others do, and then someone that actually goes to try and solve it. And typically once you start doing that kind of thing, it requires other people, it requires other teams, and you start to kind of build this group around you. Then people start to see your leadership skills. So it really snowballs, and I think that tends to be the biggest thing that I've seen drive success, at least at Google at a minimum.

Alexis: 1:09:01

Yeah, I think a lot of what you're describing with that last part is really about cultivating a personal brand, and it can start with small things, but once your manager and other people around you see you doing it, it's also you become a go to person where when the next big, crazy, hairy thing that you have no idea that's even being discussed comes up, they're like oh, Sara, oh, you are perfect for this, so you're also building the potential for those future unforeseen things to come your way. I will throw in one additional recommendations uh, recommendation, thank you. Plurality. It is the idea which really, which really comes back to the talk itself.

Alexis: 1:09:44

I started with Brene Brown's, her quote on vulnerability. I think one of the things that is hardest for most of the people that I've worked with and I know I struggled with this so much I still do whenever I get hard feedback it's still like smarts. It still hurts that you really need to be open to getting the feedback and taking it in. But not only that. I think it's also that you need to be able to recognize the things that you are good at and the things that you're not good at, and not actually try to go do work that you're not actually prepared to do and expect amazing outcomes. There was actually this really fantastic TED talk that I came across by Eduardo Briceño. Probably butchered that you nailed it.

Alexis: 1:10:37

All right, sweet. I mean this is a very popular one. It's got like four and a half million views or something. I'll put the link to it in the show notes, but it's called how to Get Better at the Things you Care About, and he really is outlining that there are two zones you can be in. You can be in a learning zone and you can be in a performance zone. And once you know how to do things, you can be in this performance zone and you know killing it. And that's obviously ultimately, when you're thinking about promotions and performance reviews and all that stuff.

Alexis: 1:11:10

Your performance is the thing that people are talking about, but the reality is that you don't know how to do all the things. It's not like sudden, you know, your manager suddenly talks about this new skill or this thing that you can, the things. It's not like your manager suddenly talks about this new skill or this thing that you can't do. It's not like you're already in the performance zone. It's like no, okay, no, I got to learn this skill. There's this thing that I don't know how to do yet. Find safe ways to do it and don't hold yourself to these expectations that you're supposed to already know how to do it. Don't jump and like, assume that you can do all these things and now have other people relying on you for it, because that also can go really badly. It's a fantastic TED talk. It's like 12 minutes long. I think it's definitely a great use of your time to take a look at it.

Sara: 1:11:56

I love that. I've always been a play to your strengths person. So resonates with me, I do find though I was a play to my strengths person so resonates with me.

Alexis: 1:12:01

I do find, though, I I was a play to my strengths person, and then I started hitting things that I couldn't do, that I needed to do, and it was. It was like a, it was a rude awakening when I started realizing some of those things and, like that was like what was holding me back from getting promoted, and that was a place where I struggled for a while. So, anyway, well, Sara, thank you so much for being here today. This has been an awesome discussion. I love hearing all of the things that you had to say, so many, and thank you for sharing some new to me stories. That was awesome.

Sara: 1:12:36

If you want me to paint a wall in your house someday, Alexis, I will.

Alexis: 1:12:40

Okay, okay, do not offer these things and not expect me to come back to you to do this. I'll fly in.

Sara: 1:12:48

I actually probably will be in Chicago more this year, so Ooh, okay, let's talk, we'll talk. Thank you very much. I'm very honored that you wanted to have me on the podcast and it's been very fun to chat about these topics.

Alexis: 1:13:04

I'm so honored that you took the time to do this.

Alexis: 1:13:07

I didn't know that you would sign up for it. I'm so glad that you did. Thank you For listeners. Let's play back some of the things that we dug into today.

Alexis: 1:13:16

I started off talking through three stages of leveling up that I outlined in a talk years ago. They were number one do amazing work. Raise the ceiling, push the boundaries of your job. Number two elevate everyone. Help other people to do the same kinds of awesome work that you are doing. And number three make others notice. Make sure you let everyone you can know about it inside outside your org, with the actual goal of helping other people do better.

Alexis: 1:13:45

This is not coming from a place of like I'm the best. That's not cool. I brought Sara on the show. Thank you so much, Sara Shookus. You helped us go even deeper. I loved all your personal stories as a manager, as an IC, as a leader, a mentor stories as a manager, as an IC, as a leader or mentor. We talked about a bunch of skills and habits, not only to move up but also to change directions, talked about being a mom, and we explored this idea of power moves, and we shared some advice on what to focus on if you really want to move up or just grow in your career. But with that, it is time for us to sign off for today. Thank you for joining. I'm Alexis Booth. This is the Breakout Booth. If you like what you heard, please subscribe to the podcast or you can head on over to breakoutboothcom and sign up for notifications. Thank you, Sara, again for being here, for being my friend. I hope you have an awesome day.